It's ironic that when the protesters in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Bahrain, Yemen and Syria occupied public spaces, our media and punditocracy called it a breakthrough for democracy. Now that it's happening in America, it's called "unamerican," among other pejoratives.

Key word curfew. In the aforementioned countries assembly for protest is largely illegal at any time. In the USA, we set aside a time for it and prohibit it during a few hours when common sense tells us we should be in our homes and not doing things others (may) find disruptive. When a person is loitering after curfew, that person is breaking an established law. Why there is ANY desire on anyone's part to encourage unlawful activity is a mystery. Curfews are upheld for the general safety and well being of the whole community; they are not put in place as punishment or to restrain freedom of speech. Public urination is also illegal, no matter how badly you want to go!

Every right in America comes with boundaries. I have the right to own a gun, but that does not mean I can take it with me anywhere I want. I have the right to freedom of speech, but that does not mean I can say anything anywhere I want. You have the right to peacefully assemble and protest, and the city has a right to regulate the use of it's park. The city is not saying you cannot assemble, you can from 6 AM to 11 PM. After that, you can still assemble, just not at the park. Seems really obvious. In Syria, and the other Arab countries, you cannot assemble at all without fear of violence. This is working out to be a fight to camp overnight in a park, and not about first amendment rights. I will go to jail for the right to sleep in a park?!?!

http://www.qcode.us/codes/palmdesert/

CV, you probably would not because common sense dictates otherwise. But there are people who have nothing better to do and in the interest of making a point will suffer what regular folks would consider humiliation. To them I say, occupy a library, particularly the philosophy and economics department; then read up on the codes of conduct for your municipality so that you are informed and able to abide by the law, and then, if you decide to occupy the streets you will not look like an uninformed fool, nor will you look like you are breaking the law merely to draw attention to yourself like a naughty child. Remember this is the entitlement generation who have been raised to believe they can do anything they like without consequences. Jail is merely to them another "time out."

The lady reads Chris Hedges, so that explains her. As to entitlement generation, you well know what I mean when I use that term to generalize. And if they did it expecting consequences as you say then they can shut up about it now. That's premeditated which is even worse than not knowing. I've said all I have to say about this. My opinion is that of the vast majority of law abiding citizens who believe in stopping at stop signs and not deciding to go thru and accepting the consequences. Dumb.

There was no victim to this "crime." Nobody got hurt, nobody was going to get hurt.

St. Augustine said, "an unjust law is not law at all."

Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade. But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain segregation and to deny citizens the First-Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and protest."

Read the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, Bill of Rights: the protestors were/are utilizing their/our most basic sense of "entitlement" in this country, which applies to all, regardless of race, gender, or age: one of our most basic "entitlements" in the U.S., as guaranteed by the first amendment, is the right to "peacably assemble to redress grievances" against our elected governing bodies.
BTW the more condescending aspect of the idea of an "entitled" generation here in the valley is evidenced by the socioeconomically over-the-top, ostentatious displays of wealth we see here....by a much older generation, one that the young people here in the valley, largely the children of hard-working, poor and one-time middle class Americans, a generation that has left our country's youth, and not-so-young, scrambling for crumbs in their disappearing leftovers....

The henchmen came in the middle of the night, to evacuate the Jews to the gas chambers. No one quibbled about curfews, or local codes. By then, it was too late....

@ Jerry Cornwell:

Do you really believe that when the monied interests control BOTH choices available to you in an election through the legalized process of bribery known as campaign contributions - you have a meaningful vote -- it looks like we are being told:" you can vote for my candidate A, or you can vote for my candidate B -- in either event , if you vote at all, you WILL vote for MY CANDIDATE."

Also, there is a reasonable probability that you disapproved of the removal of regulations on financial institutions which enabled the financial elite on Wall St. to crash the system,at the same time as they ran away with the loot. What effect followed your disapproval of that instance of organized theft (if, indeed, you in fact disapproved of the sale of sham securities as AAA investments to pension funds and other unsuspecting ordinary folks). Did you by any chance attend the $35,000 per plate fund raiser held by Goldman Sachs for Obama? If so, then you're probably right "(you did) voice (your) opinion of regulations (you found) contradictary(sp) to (your) rights or wishes." By the way -- how did that little adventure in rapacious capitalism work out for you?

You have it backward, his real name is Jack Noftsger, and goes by the made up name Jayel Aheram, that in itself says he's kind of mixed up.

Who in there correct state of mind goes by Jayel in the spot light of demonstrating and lives by the name Jack Lee Noftsger. You got to wonder?
Remeberremember steve kipple, I like to be anonymous. I am up front with my postings that I am a "conservative", See early postings. (2:00pm Tuesday, Nov. 1)

So.....who, what and where do you stand politically steve kipple?

Please don't tell me to go to your web site.
Put it up on a posting here and now.... so all your liberals and conservatives know where you are coming from steve kipple.
rememberremenber...... I would like to know.

OMG

Where do I stand? It doesn't really matter because you want to play the politics of personality, not the politics of ideas.

But here we go:

I have studied with the John Birch Society and Summit Ministries (Michelle Bachmann was on the board when I attended). I registered Republican in 2000 and voted for George W Bush. That quickly turned out to be a terrible idea, so I changed to libertarian in 2002, and voted for Michael Badnarik in 2004. That also turned out to be a bad idea, because the whole process is rigged. Since then I've only voted for local Representatives (state assembly, state senate, congressional representative, and everything below that down to school board and municipal water).

I'm still registered as a libertarian, but that label covers a wide swath of people. I'm not an individualistic libertarian, I'm more to the side of anarcho-syndicalist that anything, but I don't really like labels because it takes nuanced positions of an individual and places them in a larger monolothic block people use as a straw man.

I believe in little to no government. Decentralized power. Decentralized wealth. And a compassionate human nature. I also place loyalty to God above any other loyalty.

If you really did your research on me, as you claim, you would have already read most of this.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson
This sets the stage of my feelings

Jayel or should I say Jack lee or what should we call you today. R you e-mailing from the jail ? I watched you at the COD read your speech for your phone, waiting for the screen to regenerate, Jayel or Jack lee your TelePrompTer was treating you so well.
I can say for sure there was no passion in your delivery NONE ! So whats your game here? I don't think your goal is this OCV thing... I think your on to something else?
I am having a great day I got you out of your "mole hole" and on to the posting screen for the first time. You made me a Happy Camper.
Thank you Jayel or Jack Lee who ever you are today.

OMG

>"holds the city of Palm Desert responsible for putting a city ordinance above the first amendment rights"<

With those rights come responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is to OBEY the law! For what ever reason, there was a limit on how long you could stay. Maybe there were others who wished to hold a wedding or kids party there as one time, and the city counsel had to establish guidelines as to how long one group could use a public property to the exclusion of others.

Also, there was a curfew. Perhaps enacted to protect the park and its visitors from gangs and drug usage. Have you never read or heard news reports about kids finding needles in the sand box, or landing on a needle when they came off the slide? Or maybe you've never read any reports of how much taxpayers pay for the cleaning and repair of graffitied buildings, walls, and destroyed public property?

@steve, rememberremember,
Thanks for your efforts to get Jayel or Jack Lee on the posting screen.
If Jayel or Jack Lee is a Conservative hell is going to freeze over.
Jayel or Jack lee may be able to debate any side of a issue, but he is not a conservate.
You made me a happy camper today.

OMG

You were arrested for violating the law, Marine, and nothing else.

@Pete, Steve wrote that these folks know what they are getting into, the consequences of their actions...bingo. Rules and regs exist for reasons, ie: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/03/occupy-oakland-violence-_n_1073325.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%7C109635 clearly shows what happens when people think they are above the law.

We of the "occupy" movement and those committed to tea party principles should drop the cudgels, join forces on those issues which we have in common, and work for common goals. There is little comfort in being conservative, liberal or progressive if you have been evicted from your home, your job outsourced overseas,your medical coverage lapsed or anyone of a myriad of issues. Ideology is NOT the problem, it can be bridged. What cannot be bridged is the intransigence of those whose financial benefit is advanced by hollowing out the middle class and seizing control of the levers of government.

Woe is you Robert! My goodness what pessimism. The fact is that IF people got their butts to the polls and voted (it is estimated that up to 85% of protesters do not vote, preferring the street to the ballot box)...well IF all Americans felt as you do, that their vote us worthless, then America is already doomed. Fortunately there are still many American Patriots (not closing down ports and trying to shut down banks btw) who believe in our country, our spirit, our ingenuity and our commitment as a people to make our country and the world a better place, to restoring values, morals and hope, and believe that we CAN DO IT!

Well isn't that a coincidence that I happen to be 73 also and know a little about losing a home. To suggest that somehow the merger of the "occupy" and the "tea Party" could merge is a wonderful looney idea, when I don't recall one incident that any Tea Party rally had a sit in to get arrested. Were they effective, I only point to the 2010 elections that obviously proved that combined efforts of a few can make changes. With 24/7 news and cable channels, politics have become "Big Business" and that may be where our efforts should be focused. It is not the corporations who created the rules and regulations that favor some corporations and financial institutions. Granted their political donations and lobby groups push the issues that best support them. Both major parties benefit from them. The issues like immigration and reduction of entitlement programs are sacred cows that all politicians skirt around because it may lose a few votes. If you drive between Indio and Palm Springs you will probably pass thousands of corporations who have only gotten hurt by the rules created by finance and regulation reforms. Most small business operate as Incorporated companies. Only need to look in NYC and Oakland to see how the small businesses are being hurt by the demonstrations.

@Jerry, 100% agree. Thanks for articulating it well.

The American people don't vote because it never works. They're always voting out the incumbents because they candidates always promise change and never deliver. It's an endless cycle. That people more people willfully chose not to vote than those who do vote should speak more to the politicians than anything else.

I think that's why Obama had so many first-time voters. He promised so much. And that's why so many are discontent. It's more of the same. I figured as much before the election, which is why I didn't vote for a presidential candidate.

Nothing changes when you have to maintain the status quo. You have to change the society for the politics to change.

Maybe focusing on just one item and not try to take on all of the problems may help unite, but America is made up of so many diverse backgrounds that we tend to splinter. If education is brought up the cry will be that teachers are under paid yet we have poured more money into education and the results are horrible. The cost of education has inflated more than healthcare. But God forbid we try to change the rules of tenure. Now through our new Healthcare the government has taken over all student loans???? I look at corporations as the small business we drive by that has 10-20 employees and are paying their taxes. Then I see an article like the following one. This should creatr a letter writing campaign to our elected officials.

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/03/8617728-30-companies-paid-less-than-zero-taxes-in-recent-years

To Jerry Cornwell: Some ideas on which we might agree - create list, invite others to do so, and then have others on this blog vote on it.
-End corporate loopholes that enable 30 top corps. not to pay taxes for 3 years(G/E etc)

-Medicare should be able to negotiate prices with pharmaceutical companies to save tax payers billions.

- End the perks of congress - limo's, excessive staff etc.- they are not royalty.

- Term limits for members of Congress.

- End the rule of America by U.S. Supreme Court by having congress limit its jurisdiction as provided for in our constitution. We didn't fight a revolution to have 5 people tell us what to do.

- Undertake actions (to be specified) to assure that Americans are playing on a level playing field and have a fair chance at the American Dream.

-No more bank bailouts by U.S. taxpayers.

-Require that a stockbuyer has to hold the stock for at least 5 minutes - to avoid the wild swings that de-stabilize our markets with massive nano-second trading.

-Remove our troops from Germany, Korea, Japan, Afghanistan etc., but continue to strike at Al Qaeda (and any other threatening group) by high tech and special forces. Every soldier in Afghanistan costs approximately $1,000,000 per annum. Hire the returning soldiers to guard our borders at $50,000 and save hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars.

-Protect existing American jobs from further erosion by eliminating corporate incentives to locate overseas.

-Secure the borders.

To Jerry Cornwell (and everyone else) - do we have some commonality on some of the issues?

- Stop foreign baby farms by ending automatic citizenship for children of illegal immigrants, and those who deliberately come to u.s. to have the child in order to set the stage for eventual green card status for that child's family.

-Treat China the way they treat us. If they impose a 25% tariff on our goods ( which I understand - perhaps mistakenly - to be the case), we do the same on their goods - I am led to believe we impose 1/10th the duties on their goods.

- Put real pressure on China to adjust their currency to its real value.

- Create a tariff equal to the wage differential between other countries and ours, so that American workers do not have to compete vs. slave labor making 85 cents per hour and living in cardboard shacks without running water or electricity.

- Undertake direct action against companies like Whirlpool (boycott) who move american jobs over the border and then sell back into our markets by precluding them from selling back into our market for 10 years.

-Recognize the average I.Q. is 98, and since the avg American is not a rocket scientist ,we need jobs available that they can perform - relatively low tech.

- Recognize we cannot innovate our way to full employment: if you take all the high tech jobs of Apple, Google etc., combined, they do not equal 1/3 of G.M.s labor force in 1980.

To Jerry Cornwell:

- Get money out of politics, shorten the time for electioneering and hold elections on week end days so it is easier for working people to vote.

- Limit the amount that a politician can spend on re-election so that they don't spend half their time fund-raising, and that debates on issues take place when the bulk of the politicians are actually present in the people's debating halls - the halls are currently empty - that is why one rarely sees CSPAN wide shots.

- Last for now requires an awful lot of thought and input, but has been lingering in my mind since I first saw robots on a Japanese assembly line, and thought - our auto assembly lines require thousands of people - so the profits of production were shared between the workers and capital on some basis - let's assume 40% for labor 60% for capital. When the work force is reduced from 3,000 to 300, and productivity remains the same - labor's part of the profits (for this probably erroneous example) is reduced to 4% and capital gets 96%. What is going to happen to the other 2700 people. Right now we face millions of workers over 50, who will never find meaningful work again. That reduction in the share of labor's profits should be recaptured, presumably by taxation, and those workers should be afforded a reasonable chance to re-enter the work force. Obviously, we need to restore our infrastructure; teaching; medical help etc..Help me here - how do we protect them and profit from their labors?

To Jerry Cornwell:

Agree on the uptick rule. One of the great things about being 73 is most of our serious thinking may well be completed by 5:00 a.m..

"To Linda Hanna: Turnout in U.S. presidential elections since 1980 ranged from 58-62%. Latest elections in Tunisia 70%; Greece 70%; Sudan 72%. I believe the evidence supports the contention that a lower turnout reflects contentment with the present political order. Obviously, I may be proven to be in error"

Or apathy? Or failure to be informed enough about the process or the issues???
The people I know who don't vote are not so much content with the current political order (in fact they are not at all content) but they don't believe their vote makes a difference. They don't understand that a non vote has just as much impact as a vote....

I don't view apathy as contentment. I view it as indifference. Lack of interest. Don't mean to be nit picky. Yes being a citizen involves hard work. Indifferent people aren't willing to put out. Content people probably are more inclined to put some effort into maintaining the status quo, IMO. Lazy people (stupid ones also!) don't want to get involved whether they are content or unhappy. It's too much effort to form an opinion let alone do something about it!! Let somebody else do it.
Sigh.

To Jerry Cornwell:

Jerry, we are both 73. I have no investment in error. If I am wrong, I will gladly concede the point and move on. But I am not sure that we advance the discussion by using labels: "socialist", "communist", "right wing nut", "fascist". I like some socialist organizations, and we have had a mixed economy since we were both boys.

I like the fire department (socialist); I get a warm and fuzzy feeling realizing that police officers are on patrol at night (socialist); yes I even like the post office. I'll go one step further (first I thank you for your service to the nation), but my time in the military was the most "communistic" experience I had: we lived in common barracks, ate common meals,wore uniforms, followed military ritual, and did some of the most inexplicable things I ever did in my life. So,perhaps, we could drop the label and try to figure out what we do to address the problem of the 2700 workers who have been rendered obsolete, in some cases lost their homes, lost many if not all of the accoutrements of head of the family, and watched their children's future disappear down the sewer of life.

We don't have to worry about the "haves" - they will take care of themselves;the poor as the bible says - "we have always had with us", but beware of the "used to haves" - they are knowledgeable, some militarily trained, and AWARE though modern communication techniques that they live under a gov't - of, by and for the corporate aristocracy.

I see the occupiers differently. I see them as spoiled, unmotivated malcontents who don't know what they want but believe the responsibility for getting it falls on shoulders other than their own. Oakland is a big temper tantrum. Like European youth, they are accustomed to the govt being the provider (or their parents). It's a mentality that has become ingrained in certain circles the past few generations, not like the welfare state, but similar in that personal responsibility is not part of the formula for success or failure. They use capitalism and corporate greed as an excuse to express their discontent that some live better than others (largely because some are more industrious). Are there glitches in the system...sure. But the glitches would not bother them if they had well paying jobs and perks of their own. Looking back over my owe life at study, work, opportunities, community life, I would change very little...and what I would change has to do with my own choices. People use capitalism when it suits them (heck, it's capitalism that has provided the means for them to organize and communicate!! via their toys)...When I am unhappy, I look to myself for solutions and don't expect my neighbors or community to solve all my problems by rearranging itself to suit my needs. I don't think the occupiers give a hoot about hope. They were raised with selfish expectations and now that they have time on their hands that view point is reaching it's natural outcome.

Robert, I disagree with your assessment that the US military is "communistic". Communism has to do with control and outcome. Our military serves the defense of the people. Communist military does not serve the country or the people; it serves the will of the regime. It is serves as a tool for the govt to carry out its atrocities, usually against it's own people. I further think labels are rather useful. They serve as short cuts to define our ways of thinking about things. When one uses the term Socialist, an immediate govt and social structure comes to mind, where in the State determines for the people how best they should live. The term saves us having to explain it over and over again. In the US today people are gradually losing the freedom of self determination to the rules, regulations and control of the Federal Govt and to a lesser (and more appropriate degree) state govts. That is the result of left leaning, liberal thinking people dominating universities and media as well as appointed and elected offices. The end result of this loss of control is ultimately socialism. PS I think the Post Office is obsolete and should be shut down in favor of private carriers, e-mail, auto banking and social media.

Right On Linda!!!! You voiced my opinion very well.

What's funny is both sides of the issue here are talking about the same things, and even agreeing on the same solutions, yet because of the entrenched political divide the media pushes all the time, we're fighting each other just because we view each other as enemies instead of neighbors.

Instead of actually seeing what the Occupation is about, it's so much easier to just call them "spoiled" communists. But the occupiers I've talked with don't have any labels for the critics, except "uninformed." OWS doesn't fit into the left-right battle because it isn't pushing a liberal or conservative agenda. It's pushing a liberty agenda. It's against the rotating door of politics that leads to government handouts to corporations and corporate handouts to government.

This is what Occupy is against: http://goo.gl/Nf1Xe

Is that a right-wing agenda, or a left-wing agenda?

Here's one example: "Stephen Friedman In 2008, the New York Fed approved an application from Goldman Sachs to become a bank holding company giving it access to cheap Fed loans. During the same period, Friedman, chairman of the New York Fed, sat on the Goldman Sachs board of directors and owned Goldman stock, something the Fed's rules prohibited. He received a waiver in late 2008 that was not made public. After Friedman received the waiver, he continued to purchase stock in Goldman from November 2008 through January of 2009 unbeknownst to the Fed, according to the GAO."

We want justice.